I leave the tough decisions up to the Internet.
March 22, 2005I can’t stop thinking about real estate, Internet. Specifically: should we stay in Brooklyn, or should we beat a shameful retreat to the suburbs? I need you to tell me.
We bought our two-bedroom apartment a few years back for a quarter and some old gum wrappers, and it is now worth billions. While this is lovely, it also means that if we hope to buy a larger space in our neighborhood—well, we can’t; it’s not even worth talking about. Our space is not quite large enough for us, and will definitely Not Work if we have another child (NO I’M NOT PREGNANT). With the crazy inflation of real estate prices in NYC, we will only be able to afford a lean-to on the banks of the Gowanus, and Henry and his imaginary sibling will develop extra limbs from all the fumes coming off of the fetid waters. So that’s probably not the best option.
So it comes down to this: either we stay in our place, which in addition to being on the small side is dark and loud (we’re on the first floor on a main avenue—in the summer people walk up to our window and ask for money. We’re like an ATM! An ATM for crazies!), or we move to an As Yet Unnamed Suburb. We’ve found a couple of areas that seem to suit our needs: we could probably afford a smallish house in one of these towns, which are close to the city and artsy/liberal. However (need I add this?) they’re Not Brooklyn. We would not have the library, the museum, the park, and the Botanic Garden all within a few blocks of our home. We would have to own a car (gasp!). On the other hand, we would have a backyard. And a decent school district. And amenities within walking distance. On the other hand I will be dead inside (probably). My youth gone, I will spend the days watching soaps and drinking Chardonnay; when Husband arrives from the city I will greet him at the door with pies made of Play-Doh and cigarette butts. Isn’t this what you suburban types do? Yes?
In a nutshell, I am driving myself bonkers. One moment I think I can never leave Brooklyn how could I even think such a thing and then in the next moment I’m dreamily picturing mornings with Henry and Scott in a sunny breakfast nook instead of our dank living room/dining room/kitchen that is periodically infested with vermin. I would give up a lot to never have to worry again about stepping on a waterbug on my way to the bathroom. And don’t try to tell me about the cicadas or grasshoppers or whatnot you have in the suburbs--they are not the same thing.
Basically what it comes down to is there are many pros to moving, and one big con: we wouldn’t live here anymore. We feel superior to you non-Brooklyn people. Now you know.
Opinions. Yours. Let me have them.
EDITED TO ADD: Before I get more defensive comments: do I really have to say that I'm being facetious when I say I feel superior? Do I have to say that? I guess I have to say that. Sigh.
Reader Comments (203)
On the other hand, you probably won't get back in to the city as often as you might think, especially over time. So do choose a liberal/artsy (or whatever) kind of place that really suits you.
Good luck - tough decision!
While the country offers things like no neighbors for 50 miles, loud parties and bonfires....the closest store is well 50 MILES away.
The city sucks because I can watch the neighbors undress (well, they are old so...you know) and we have an itty yard.
That being said I would not move back to the country. My kids would do the same things I did (pout of sheer boredom) and if I discuss those things I could be subject to prosecution.
In the city I am able to take them places, do fun things and all of that. I would suggest that you stay in the city but look around and see if anything with another room meets your fancy.
But seriosuly the answer is move to Syracuse where you could live in the nicest neighborhood and send the kids to a boushy private school (for life) with the same money you would use for a DOWNPAYMENT on a house in NYC.
Living in the city is wonderful, but don't forget that you will still be living closeby and can make trips in periodically to enjoy culture, restaurants and such.
Good luck!
Yes, there's a certain soul-less-ness out here sometimes, but I'm pretty sure you can get that in only minimally varying flavors everywhere.
Speaking for myself as a kid, I have to say that it was a majillion times better growing up with lawns and other kids and riding my bike and exploring the woods and "the pit" and "danger hill" and "the pond" and "that rock where Craig C fell and knocked three teeth out."
We would for real leave the house around 4 (after school) and wouldn't show up again 'till just after dark. Adventures and misadventures and long boring days watching the ants or just doing nothing. I don't know how true that is now, (putting on my parent hat), with what seems to be the uptick in weirdo predator types, but it's still, I think, more true in the 'burbs than in the city.
Speaking for myself as a parent, I have to say that I've never felt a critical need that couldn't wait the thirty minute drive to the city. I mean, okay, I can't get Dipsy Doodles and a beer at the corner deli at 4 in the morning. But at the end of the day that's no great loss. And the museums and stuff... well, even if we lived in the city I'd only ever go there on a weekend, and all the burbs mean is that it's an extra half-hour schlep and a little more money, but no real impediment.
The big suck for the burbs is really the commute issue. Two parts to that, too -- there's the suckage of traffic and waste of time and frustration, etc., and the more important thing about getting home early enough or leaving late enough to spend some time with the little 'uns. But you figure it out. (I hope.) And besides, you said commute's not a prob.
I used to be a city snob, too (even at 10, when we moved). But at the end of the day I am happy I grew up bridge-and-tunnel, and happy that I'm raising my family out here, too.
I'm sure there are those who will disagree, but that's what makes a horse race. Or something.
--FrumDad[Google Wangle: Orthodox Jewish Father]
I have never (EVER) lived anywhere but the suburbs. In fact, my husband and I are (if I count right) roughly 3rd generation suburbian. (Of course, way back then it wasn't a suburb at all--it was a day-long journey into the country.) I have always had this knee-jerk reaction to the nose-in-the-air, oh-so-superior city attitude and their disdain for suburbanites. Can you blame me? So, to aid in your decision-making:
There are people in the 'burbs who did not go to college simply to get their MRS. Many suburbs have rich, thriving cultural lives including museums, theaters, galleries, and music. My friends and I have engaging conversations about life, religion, philosophy, politics, culture . . . not (just) about pie recipes, planting bulbs, or HOAs (that's Home Owners Associations). In my burb, I have gorgeous bike paths that can take me all around the metro area and the state! My kids will be able to walk to school and never cross a street. We're culturally diverse.
Yes, I drive a lot. I work in the next town over, but have to drive there. We don't have public transit--but some 'burbs do. There are an overabundance of mini vans. And, yeah, I have this nagging desire to compete with my neighbors' houses, lawns, (eventually) kids . . . But, I can't imagine NOT living in the suburbs.
Like finding the right ANYTHING, you have to look at fit. Not all 'burbs are alike. You'll need to consider those things and their importance to you: diversity, amenities like shopping, parks, activities, cost of living, transportation. But, rest assured there are all sorts of lovely communities out there that just might offer everything you're looking for! In fact, I'm just reminded that in some 'burbs you can now live in a centrally located "downtown" loft/apt. and have a little of both worlds. Anyway . . .
Alice is talking suburbs. Like Hoboken or (hopefully) a little further out. Lawns, etc., but probably within 30 miles of New York City.
--FD
I have a backyard and a dog. Most of my neighbors are really cool and friendly. My daughter can walk home from a friend's house at 10:30 p.m. I'm only a half hour from the Loop. I get out quite a bit to lots of cool places, and some of them -- gasp -- are in other suburbs!
If your gut is telling you that leaving Brooklyn would be like cutting off your arm, then stay. But if your gut is telling you that you really like feeling superior to a living location you don't know much about, please explore. It is what you make of it.
I feel you on the difficulty of this decision. I live in Greensboro, NC--clearly not the kind of relocation you're considering, but bear with me--we have a nice little house with a yard and storage and we live on the edge of a 5 mile bike path/park system. We can also walk to our local baseball stadium and to downtown--restaurants, shops, and (my lord!) even a decent coffee shop (shout out, Green Bean). But what makes the GSO feel like home to us is our friends. We have a great community of like-minded people (I very much regret not taking a picture of our street, lined as it was by Kerry signs as far as the eye could see) and, because this is a college town, we have decent literature and art. Now, there are things I Hate About The South, just as there would be things I would hate about the North, East, West, and/or the Moon. But what allows us to keep on keepin' on down here is that we've made a good life for ourselves. And that, I firmly believe, is something we could have done anywhere. So, a long comment all to say this: I think you can make your own happiness, wherever you are--it is, in manys, a choice, not a coincidence of location. Good luck!
KC
We ended up in the whitest city in America (shout out to Livonia, Michigan!) which is an unending source of shame, but this way our daughter could go to a great school for free, and we have our little house on our quiet street and don't have to worry about the crazies walking in unannounced (which happened in our apartment). And our block and our daughter's school are very diverse, so that helps.
Our daughter is an only child without even the thought of a phantom sibling, so I like the fact that she can play with the several kids her age who live on our street, and I can just toss them all outside when the noise level escalates too high.
And we can zip into Detroit or Ann Arbor in about 1/2 an hour, which isn't too bad, so we have lots to do. And car time with your kid or spouse is a great way to just talk without an agenda. Plus, seriously, get the XM satellite radio, and you will want to LIVE in your car.
Ultimately, as so many have said, your gut will tell you. If you're tired of living somewhere small and dank, sunshine is awesome. But if the idea of shedding your urban skin is too painful, I totally understand.
Good luck.
But? My advice is to go big. I have FOND memories of our first two-bedroom apartment. We had moved from a tiny studio and it just felt HUGE. It did WONDERS for our marriage. WONDERS. It was a two-story apartment, which meant my husband could be UPSTAIRS! Alone! By himself! On an entirely different FLOOR from me! I didn't have to look at him EVERY. SINGLE. SECOND. Which made me actually want to look at him more often. Similar to what happened when we finally bought a king-sized bed.
Anyway, I thought I'd hate it, but instead I love it. Seriously, I can't describe the sheer pleasure of hanging out on the back porch drinking mint juleps or hot toddies (depending on the weather) while the kids play in the yard. No vermin infestations, no panhandlers you have to be polite to no matter how aggressive they are (or how broke you are) because they know where you live, no worrying that the TV or stereo is too loud or being irritated by someone else's noise. Niiiiice.
I grew up in the suburbs. It sucked, sucked, sucked. In the 20 years since I left the 'burbs I have lived in Minneapolis, Cambridge (MA), London, Brooklyn, Northfield, MN, and Eastport, ME. As far as I'm concerned, urban neighborhoods bear more of a resemblance to small towns than the suburbs, which seem to combine the worst of city and country living. In the 'burbs, you have more space, but less community. You might be able to afford more bedrooms, but have you checked out those property taxes?! And you need a car for EVERYTHING. Most suburban developments I've been to -- and lived in -- don't even have sidewalks. What does that tell you? You will not just be Henry's mom, you will become his chauffeur. And your husband's chauffeur, too, if you want that car around during the day while he's at work. (Or else you have to buy two cars, if you don't want to be trapped in the house.) You are, in all likelihood, going to have less of a neighborhood than you have in Brooklyn; many of the more affordable suburbs have lost their downtown areas and everyone shops at the mall and "big box" stores. Living in a place where you can't walk to the bank, the grocery store, the library, public transportation or a place like Tea Lounge is going to make your world smaller, not larger. And where are your friends? If they are carless and living in NYC, it's going to be harder to visit. I mean, the cyber community is great and all, but sometimes you just need a little face time with someone else who can remember when the first Star Wars movie came out (even if we were in the 3rd grade at the time!). I realize that many people out there are not going to understand my negativity on this topic, but I just think that if you have lived in a lively Brooklyn neighborhood for long enough to have bought your apartment for gum wrappers and a few loose shoelaces (as I did back in 1993), the adjustment to suburban living is going to be way more significant than you think, and will require you to give up many things you have come to know and love -- and that undoubtedly make your life easier. (Hey, if you didn't love the package you have in Brooklyn, you wouldn't have stuck around this long, right?!)
My husband and I are in the ironic predicament of owning a Park Slope apartment that we couldn't afford to buy in today's market, despite the fact that between us we make 6 times what I was making at the time I bought it (not that that's saying much!) This galls him more than it does me, as he grew up just a few blocks down the street (in a house that his parents RENTED for 40 years, but that's another sore subject so we won't go there). We are looking at selling our apartment for billions (well, relatively) and moving further out in Brooklyn to buy a house -- Kensington, Ditmas Park, Brooklyn College area -- and we figure we're not the only ones; if these neighborhoods don't have the cachet of a Cobble Hill or Park Slope yet, they'll get there. (Let me tell you, when I moved to Prospect Heights in 1991 I paid my rent in cash, I blew a fuse if I tried to iron and listen to the stereo at the same time, and I'm pretty sure I was the only legal US resident in the building. The outside door to my building didn't even lock. My mother was beyond horrified. Now I can't afford to live on that block...think about it!)
The hubs and I just moved from NYC in August. We lived in Murray Hill and we took the plunge and bought a little house in one of the closest suburbs to Boston. It is still on the subway and everything. A 10 minute walk for us to get to the subway. The town also has a little town center with coffee shops and clothing stores and adorable boutiques that are fun to visit. I did have a bit of an adjustment period, I admit. I was terribly sad for a couple of weeks at the thought of having to drive to the grocery store and not being able to walk to buy dog food or visit the farmer's market. But I have also been ecstatic at having my own backyard and front yard and loads of space. Especially loads of closets, oh the beauty of closets, really. And a basement and a garage. I love my little house and my neighbors are pretty nice and fun. We get into the city when we feel like it and we stay home or go into our town center when we are feeling lazy.
I would sit down, I guess, and figure out how often you do the things that are available in Brooklyn. I remember that I was traumatized to leave NYC at the thought of not having central park and the museums and all the restaurants, but I finally realized that I didn't go as much as I thought I did, and it was more the idea of leaving that bothered me. It is such a personal decision. I also don't have a munchkin yet, so I can't weigh in on schools or kids, although our schools are great and that is one less thing to worry about.
Good luck!