The c-word.

So in this latest Momversation video, I seem to be the lone parent who delighted in the mutilation of her child.

I must say, in the pre-edited footage Maggie was pretty neutral on the topic—she basically said she didn't want to circumcise her son, but she could see the arguments either way. In the editing process she turned all anti-circumcision, and as a result it looks like I'm being ganged up on. Which works for me, because now I get the sympathy vote. Also, weirdly, they made it look like I've got a shirt on. Computer magic!

This was a particularly difficult topic for me, because in addition to anticipating the hate mail I would receive (anti-circumcision crusaders, I've found, really want to make other people feel terrible about their decisions), I was defending a stance that's sort of, well, not mine. As I say in the video, Scott felt really strongly that his son should be circumcised, and I agreed on that grounds. Of course if I were really violently opposed I would have put up more of a fight, but neither was I entirely gung ho on the procedure. So being put in a position to defend circumcision feels odd, to say the least.

Maggie made a great point in the original footage; basically she said, why do we feel that in order for our opinion to be right, we have to make sure that everyone who feels differently is wrong? And I think that pretty much sums up the fights about co-sleeping and breastfeeding and circumcision and crying it out and pretty much every single topic in these tiresome, endless mommy wars. In the end, we each do what we think is best for our families. What place does anyone else have to pass judgment?

Comments

[Keri]

"why do we feel that in order for our opinion to be right, we have to make sure that everyone who feels differently is wrong? And I think that pretty much sums up the fights about co-sleeping and breastfeeding and circumcision and crying it out and pretty much every single topic in these tiresome, endless mommy wars. In the end, we each do what we think is best for our families. What place does anyone else have to pass judgment?"

Most level-headed piece of conversation about the mommy-wars I've read. Thank you.

[The Window Seat]

Oh, THAT C word.

I don't have a son yet, but I plan on getting it done. I can see both sides but for me circumcision seems like the right answer. I'm descended from the Judeo-Christian tradition and it has meaning to that.

[Ariel]

I love you Alice! :) And in the end, if I ever have a boy, I'll defer to my husbands judgment in the matter because, after all, he's got one, and I don't!

[Kate]

BIG FAT HUGE DITTOS and THANK YOUS to you (and Keri)

[Jen]

We used a twist on the "husband's choice" plan. I told him how much I didn't want to circ (which was probably a 7 on a scale of 10) and I told him that if he wanted to circ worse than I didn't want to, that we'd do it. In the end, he decided he didn't care (I think he really just didn't want to have to keep talking about it) and we left Orion intact.

It does amaze me what a hot button issue it is. The militant anti circ crusaders I've come across mainly seem to be just trying to out-progressive each other. No thanks.

[Jenny]

I really wish that people who have such strong opinions about something like circumcision would take that holier-than-thou attitude and direct it towards something worthwhile.

Do these people honestly believe that parents who choose to have their sons circumcised are on par with genital mutilators, or don't love their "tiny little babies" enough to spare them from a knife?

Hogwash.

If it's not right for you, don't do it. If you believe, for one or more personal reasons, that it is the right thing for your son, that's your business too. Can't we save the judgment for child abuse, equal rights to education and food, and other life-endangering concerns?

[exile on mom street]

I have to admit to being really relieved that by adopting my son, I got to "opt out" on a number of the Mommy Wars hot topics.

He was already circumcised (we adopted him at 20 days), I couldn't breast feed him, and the terms of the adoption required that he be immunized!

Yeah. Not feeling guilty about any of it.

[Jessica]

This did seem like one of those issues that draws definite judgment...and maybe it couldn't hurt that it did. It does seem like one of those judgments that are snappily made, or for some strange reason, given fully to male opinion to decide (that wasn't part of the gameplan!)

Hmm, makes me think to hear all these different perspectives. I would have laid there on the grill beside ya, but alas, I'm on these comfy sidelines here.

[hi kooky]

Yeah, that's topic I'm reeeeally glad to be past having to decide about. (bad syntax. sorry.)

[De in D.C.]

Alice, I ended up doing the same thing that you and Ariel discussed; I pretty much let the decision up to his father. He has that part and I don't. Admittedly, I think his reason was somewhat weak (he didn't want our son to look at his father and look at himself and wonder why he was different), but I didn't think it was that big of a deal. I had read the same study summary reports that showed a reduced incident of penile cancer and less likely to transmit STDs to a partner so that was my justification to myself. In hindsight I probably wouldn't have it done now if my was just delivering, but this was 9yrs ago and really, I just thought it was something everyone did.

[Ariel]

And I so DID NOT get that you were "delighted" or "joyful" about it, btw.

[Peggy]

Wow. What a powerful momservation. I have three boys (all circumsized), but a husband who is not (born in England). I did lots of research before our first son was born and presented it all to my husband who simply said that he felt different when he was growing up and he didn't want his son to feel the same way. He was teased all the way through college. There wasn't enough of an argument against doing it, so we did. I'm not sure where Daphne gets the "wound" information, but except for a little vaseline for a few days they had no problems. It is certainly not like female multilation at all. In many parts of Africa, they show an increased rate of HIV incidence in areas where it is not a custom to do male circumcism. (saw a whole show on it on PBS Frontline). Anyway, thanks for standing up for those of us with boys without "turtlenecks."

[Marinka]

I posted on the other blog, and now I'm here to blather on again. The first woman who spoke really chapped my ass, but maybe she was being intentionally provocative--saying that she is deadset against it, etc.
I feel about circumcision the same way that I feel about abortion? Against it? Great, then don't get one. But stop shoving your views down everyone else's throat.

[J.]

I don't have kids, so I really can't be militant about circumcision, but my question would be, would I want it done to myself. So, no, then.

[ms curmudge0n]

Something that struck me while watching the video was that, though many women would fight a grizzly to stop someone from performing genital mutilation on their daughters, many men seem not to have that response to circumcision. My husband, at least, seems pretty neutral on the issue (it's not been a big thing for us, since we don't have kids).

And, seriously, looking at FGM vs. circumcision, there's very little similarity between the two procedures other than that they both involve reproductive organs.

[Barb @ getupandplay]

I agree, so wholeheartedly, that one can have a strong opinion about something without automatically making the dissenting opinion WRONG.

[michelle]

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE! You SO nailed it. Why can't *I* be right for *MY* family, and *you* be right for *yours*. DON'T GET THAT! Never have, never will. I think that way on pretty much every single topic that actually has a moral question (not like murder and shit, duh!)

As for this specific topic, here's my say, and how I came to the decision for my (our) son. I left it to dad. why? BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A PENIS! To me this is a no brainer. If I had one I might have a vote that held up, but seeing as I don't, I think those with the goods have a more weighted, more learned vote.

so Dad wanted to. Adn while I cared, don't get me wrong (You get this, I know) I felt very strongly in giving Dad this one and trusting that he was right. I figured if I trusted him to put that thing in me, I could trust him to know how to treat one.

[Amanda]

It's just another debate in the never ending stream of parenting related issues. It gets so tiring, doesn't it? Circumcision, breast feeding, and oh my favorite, c-sections. I had to have one with my first and chose to have a repeat with my second. And wouldn't you know, that just pisses some people right off? Forget that the first one saved our lives, I should have tried harder, or something. There is judgement for everything. My biggest, most important challenge as a parent thus far, has been learning how to block it all out. I haven't completely figured out how to do that yet, but I am working at it. I enjoyed your contribution to the conversation.

[sarah]

I think that the fact that being circumcised reduces your HIV infection risk by 50% is enough of a reason to do it. Here are two studies on it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6176209.stm

[kimpossible]

I don't have anything terribly new or witty to add, but would "amen" that taking taking off foreskin is nothing like FGM, in intent nor physiology. Also, whether for religious, hygiene, familial tradition, or anything else, this something parents do because they think it is best for their son's mental/physical/spiritual health, not the opposite! It is done out of love. And although you can't "give it back" there are no studies (that I have ever heard of) that say you have perminently harmed you child. That being said, do what YOU think is best of ryour child-- just know I will do the same and expect the same level of respect.

[Robin]

I think your written summary of the topic here is probably the most compelling I've read.

So do you feel that the editors of Momversation erred in their editing to make it more sensational? I'm an editor (for a print publication) and we get blamed for that all the time. I just interested in your reaction to the editing.

[sarah]

Oh, also, I just heard Alice say there are studies calling into question some studies. I read one of the original articles about the nun working in Africa who first figured this out. She noticed a correlation in the communities she was serving and then overlayed a map of the HIV infection rates and circumcised/not-circumcised communities.

[Yolanda]

The more I think about this episode, the more annoyed I am at how it was handled. Circumcision is not a choice that I would make for my son. Just as I wouldn't pierce my daughter's ears unless and until she requests it. My feelings about circumcision are a bit stronger than that; but on the whole I view it as a mostly harmless form of body modification and feel the person who owns that body should be the one to make the call.

What upsets me about the Momversation discussion is that the question Daphne is asking isn't, "How did you come to the decision to circumcise your son or not?" She's saying, "Circumcision is wrong, now justify to me why you did it!" There is real an reasonable conversation that can happen around this choice (as with so many choices in parenting). But when it couched around "My choice is right. Tell me why yo don't agree with me"...then what exactly is the point of the conversation?

[Dad Gone Mad]

I have a mutilated penis, as does my son, and I've been in a sufficient number of locker rooms to know I much prefer my maimed-but-sexy member over a wanker that looks like an overcooked bratwurst being swallowed by a one-eyed, flesh-colored boa constrictor.

On a serious note, comparing circumcision to female genital mutilation is patently absurd and, in my opinion, represents a deplorable lack of empathy and education.

[Barb Cooper]

My cousin's parents decided not to circumcise him. Which was all well and fine until he developed some sort of persistent, reoccurring infection and had to be circumcised at age 12 after having undergone many, many bouts of antibiotics.

Dude's in his 30's now and he's STILL not over it. To each his own but...well..ouch.

[Heather]

As the lovely Maggie looks all 'sanctimommy' in that preview shot, I can't even bring myself to watch. Nail on head about keeping this and other issues at the level of personal choice and not crusade. The information is certainly out there if one would want to wade through it to make a decisions. If anyone is giving more than a moment's thought to my kid's genitals, then, um, eww.

[Bari]

Oh Alice, I feel so awful that you feel like you have to defend your decision. Can't even begin to react to the comparison on circ vs FGM, it almost offends me to have to listen to it. They stopped calling it "female circumcision" for a reason.

Just to throw in my 2 cents, I'm due in the spring and if its a boy we are having a circumcision. We really never considered not doing it. I'm Jewish and haven't really heard enough against it to buck tradition and we (my non-jewish but circumcised husband) think it will be easier in the long run to explain things if they look similar.

[Carla Hinkle]

Umm, I am loving how sanctimonious Daphne (the first woman) is when she doesn't even *have* a son yet. Yeah. Very easy to call a decision as black and white when you haven't had to make it.

I don't have any sons ... only daughters ... and am glad I haven't had to make this particular decision. But the comparison to female genital mutilation seems pretty crazy, to me.

[Laura]

Okay - FGM and circumcision for boys are two VERY different things.

Religious and/or cultural beleifs aside - male circumcision does not hinder or prevent male enjoyment of sex.

FGM does that. And only that. I've never seen a study where FGM is proven to prevent disease or have any beneficial effect on women.

Men can and do, perform, function and feel sensation normally with or without a circumcision.

After an FGM the female loses sensation. They are two VERY different things.

And just for my two cents - I dont have a boy yet but when I do, I will have him circumcised. As a woman I have not been comfortable with the uncircumcised ones I've come across. I prefer a circumcised one so I will have my boy circumcised. Plus I'm Jewish. But that's just my opinion. Y'all are free to feel however you like.

[Angella]

I honestly think that comes down to personal choice/cultural customs.

The men on my side of the family are all circumcised because that is what everyone did.

My two sons are NOT, only so that they can "be like their Dad".

(If my husband knew that I just typed that on the Internet he would die a slow death of embarrassment.)

[jessica]

oh my god so glad i made it over here today! i am about a day old to your blog and LOVE how you defended yourself and didn't back down to that vicious mommy who doesn't even have a son yet!!!!! i got my son circumsized 12 years ago, before anyone had internet and i was just like her stupid friends at work who just did it because it's what should be done. you know, like driving on the right side of the street. it was not a religious thing. maybe it was just an american thing. you know, since us americans are into that. maybe she should go live in europe where it's cool to be all uncircumsizy. anyway, yeah to each his own but boy was she on the attack and i too felt very offended and defensive. wow. thank god i had my kids before computers were in every home. there were no mommy groups or crusades to hide from. we just did what we wanted to do and that was it. everyone is way too uptight and politically correct and up on the latest trends nowadays. ditto on the comment about infections later in life. i've heard of that and believe me it's easier to be "mutilated" at birth than when you're older. yowsa.

[kate]

I thought you were very brave, Alice, to discuss this topic. It was obviously painful for you to have to defend yourself, but you did so with grace and humor. Which, I think, defines you in a nut-shell.

Dad Gone Mad's description made laugh out loud. Oy.

[Jane]

Please research some real studies and look into the history of circumcision in the United States. Evidence won't convince you? That's right, logic and evidence go out the window when you get to be affronted by judgmental mommies. Be honest with yourself and admit you circumcised because of your own sexual preference or religious superstition.

I can't believe you'd do that to your child because you "heard of a study." Wow, that's some responsible parenting right there! I guess all the men in Europe have them some diseased wangs!

Alice, I thought you were an educated, logical thinker. Ugh, I've been reading you for over four years. Consider this my flounce.

[Alice]

I didn't say I had "heard of" studies, I said I had *read* them. I don't appreciate religious beliefs being equated with superstition. And you are as judgmental, Jane, as any nightmare I could conjure up.

Feel free to never come here again. Don't let the door hit you, etc.

[Marinka]

Jane, I read those studies too, and I have an uncircumcised son. Uncircumcised men have a higher incidence of STDs, infections and complications that arise from it.

[Catherine Seiner]

I love your post and what you said about your decision for your son. I personally don't mind if people have a different point of view then I do but it does bother me when people think that everyone out there should do it their way or it's wrong.
We are having a boy in about 5 weeks. And he is getting circumcised. I'm Jewish, so that is part of it, but really I felt that it was my husbands choice since he has a penis and is circumcised and if it bothered him then we wouldn't even consider it for our son. But on the contrary, it bothered him more to think of his son not getting circumcised.

I love your post so much I'm going to post it over on my blog too.
Thank you for getting in there and stating what you feel.

[Jen]

Am I on dooce.com or what? (No offence to dooce. I love dooce too).

I'm not surprised that this is a topic that not everyone agrees on, but I'm surprised by the venom.

Belittling someone's decision making process and/or religion over the internet because you came to different conclusions for your own family is hardly a constructive contribution to this discussion.

I think what I'm most offended by is the implication in some of the comments that Alice (or a mom whose son is circumcised) doesn't care about their sons' health and well being.

Well done Alice, for being honest about a decision that your family made for itself. You are so clearly a thoughtful and sensitive mom. Onward!

[MamaCass]

You said it there at the end...What peace we'd all have if we could just feel good about the decisions we make for our families because they are the right ones for us, regardless of what the moms on the "other side" of the topic feel. It's a daily struggle for me.

[Elizabeth_K]

Man --- and you said people overreacted about this topic. Oh, right, because they are (see: Jane. UGH!). Anyway -- our baby is not, but most of my friend's babies are. I'll go watch the Momversation, but I agree that so much about mothering is about how if i'm RIGHT, you must be WRONG. So very, very irritating. I bet your circumcised son could KICK my uncircumcised son's BUTT! And only a bit because my son is 10 months and yours is 5? 6?

[ml66uk]

Anyone who sees a fundamental difference between female and male circumcision should try talking with the people who are in favor of cutting their daughters (eg in Egypt or Malaysia). They see it as a clean and hygienic medical procedure, and argue very strongly that it's up to them what they do, everyone over there does it, and their daughters will thank them.

They'd probably think of you as "interfering" "holier-than-thou" "crusaders", just because you think it's wrong for a girl to have part of her genitals removed.

You might see a difference, but they don't.

It's worth remembering that we wouldn't even be having this discussion if it weren't for the fact that 19th century doctors thought that :
a) masturbation caused various physical and mental problems (including epilepsy, convulsions, paralysis, tuberculosis etc), and
b) circumcision stopped masturbation.

Both of those sound ridiculous today I know, but if you don't believe me, then check out this link:
http://www.noharmm.org/docswords.htm

If my son wants to be circumcised when he's 18 (16 if he knows what he's doing), I'll pay for it and help him find a good surgeon. Until then, he stays intact. His body - his decision. If he wants to be circumcised later, it's easy to fix - safer, less painful, and better cosmetic results. If we'd had him circumcised, and he wanted to be intact, it's a problem.

[jessica]

i am SO SO SO amazed by the -i can't even think of a word for it- about circumcision! absolutely amazed. religious superstition?? well that's a whole 'nother momversation right there. did i mention how glad i am that i had my kids a long time ago? this is why i don't hang out with the moms in the school yard. and why i work with kids. because i don't really like people. namely, other mothers. just wow.

[eleise]

I did something novel, and asked a penis doctor about circumcision. (Okay, not really a penis doctor, he was an ex army surgeon). He had no opinion on whether I should have my sons circumcised or not, because I just don't think he gave a rat's ass.

BUT, he said he had performed dozens and dozens of circumcisions on grown men and it was awful to behold. Evidently, some dudes don't wash correctly, or things rub weird, and they get these red nasties that never go away. The only way to clean up the mess is circumcision.

Now, I have a young teenager and a tween. And I can't get those rascals to wash their faces. I have no idea what goes on in the shower, but let me say that I doubt hygiene is all that paramount.
I mean, sometimes they come out of the shower with dry hair.

So, I feel for sure I made the right decision. Circumcision.

Plus, those pigs in a blanket thangs look weird. If that's me being a Judeo Christian prude, whatever.

I think to make decisions like this based on fashion, and often, that is exactly what it is, is senseless.

[Guera!]

"anti-circumcision crusaders, I've found, really want to make other people feel terrible about their decisions"
You could insert almost anything in place of "anti-circumcsion" here and it would be accurate statement. Anything that someone or a group feels strongly about regardless of which side you are on. And I think Maggie's comment explains why this statement applies to so many contentious topics.

[Carrie]

I just want to thank you for saying the things you did. We circumcised our son and I felt offended at the beginning of the video. I don't have strong opinions about it either way, but I also don't like being told that I am wrong, wrong, wrong for having done so. And I really appreciate that you commented on feeling attacked in the video instead of just saying your view point. Thank you.

[maryeliz]

Seconding what Kate wrote above. Grace + Humor = your response. And also you. Couldn't agree more with what you said. (My almost-three-year-old son is circumcised and I have no regrets. Comparing circumcision to FGM is absurd, as you pointed out.)
Cheers to you,
mary

[marisa]

ml66uk, I think a lot of folks get their sons circumcised because they are persuaded by current - not 19th C. - medical thinking about hygiene.

Although practitioners of female genital mutilation obviously think they are right to do so (or they would stop, one assumes), that doesn't mean there's a fair comparison to be made between male circumcision and FGM. Step back for a moment and think about what's involved in female circumcision as it's currently practiced (and if you don't know, here is a diagram giving a run-down of the various degrees of cutting involved: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FGC_Types.jpg). Alice is right - if we performed male circumcision by removing the penis, and merely differed in how much of a stump was left (...), that would be a much closer comparison.

[Lori]

My sons are 20 and 18 and both are circumcised. I hated that it had to be done, but believe me, that phrasing was correct for that time---I felt then that it pretty much "had to be done." You know, you just, as a young mom who could only get your hands on enough information to confuse and scare yourself, sort of tended to do what your Doctor, your pediatrician, your Mom, your aunts, your sisters, your friends all did. I didn't know babies, I didn't know penises, it was shocking that this decision was being left up to me. I tried to be informed, I weighed what I read and heard about the pros and cons, I did what I thought best based on what was available to me. That's what I did and that's what people I know who are also faced with the decision do. It's hard to be judgmental about something that DOES have actual legitimate pros and cons.

[jenn]

how come people say "intact" its not like your cutting the balls off of a dog.. that erks me for some reason. Anyway, I was a bit taken back by this momversation. I felt that it was lopsided and I truely wanted to be sitting next to you saying ME TOO ME TOO! and from what I know and have read, its a lot less painful as a newborn baby than as an adult.Also, yes it reduces the chance of HIV by 50%, One reason we decided to circumsize our sons, also, the hygiene aspect of it..my husband and I know three different men that had severe infections as children because of the "extra" skin.. they eventually had to be circumsized and discuss it as the worst experience they ever had to endure..at least I know my sons dont remember the procedure! Also as a female, I will admit, I have come in "contact" with some uncircumsized penis's and in my opinion they were less than satisfactory, thats not to say they all are, just in MY HUMBLE opinion, I prefer a circumsized penis.

I agree with Sarah above, I felt Daphne didnt ask a question, she gave her opinion and expected for everyone to tell her why on God's green earth they would chose otherwise!

In my opinion, to each their own, I am not going to judge someone if they do or do not circumsize or breast feed, or if they sleep with or without their kids.. its THEIR KIDS, THEIR CHOICE! just like, my kids, my choice!

[aviva]

Long time reader, first time commenter - and THANK YOU. I agree with every bit of this and most things you say.

When I was pregnant with our daughter I didn't find out what I was having, and I am Jewish. We lived in San Diego, and my parents were in NJ - I told them if we had a boy we would circumcise him in the hospital, and not have the bris a week later b/c the family members couldn't fly out on that short notice. But our boy would be circumcised - because I'm Jewish and it matters, and because ANY man who wasn't (when I was in college) was thought of as freakish and most American women are scared to death of a penis in a turtleneck!

When I was pregnant, an acquaintance of mine sent me horribly disturbing images in an email begging me NOT to circumcise my son if I had one. Nobody else has the right to campaign for my child's well-being. I was appalled and I told him so, and asked him to never contact me again. You covered this with style and grace and I would have felt the same way. If we're good parents and we love and care for our children, it's nobody else's business how we choose to parent.

[dd]

Jane, she "read" studies, not "heard of" them. She has "heard of" more recent ones, SINCE her son was born, if I am reading/listening correctly.

3/10 on flounce scale.